Oliver Peterson: Trust in Australia’s childcare system, it’s been shaken by recent allegations of abuse. Now, the coalition says that stronger national safeguards are needed to better protect children and to give parents confidence. Let’s find out what they’re proposing, and then you tell me whether these changes could actually make a difference. Matt O’Sullivan is their shadow minister for choice in childcare and early learning. Senator, good afternoon.
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Good afternoon Oly, good to be with you. What exactly is the coalition calling on the government to do? Well, firstly, Collie, we want the government to fulfil its commitment that I’ve already made, and that is to have a band in one band in all registers. So what that means, if someone is banned, and they just say that I haven’t got a working with children’s check in one jurisdiction, in one state, that would be a national register, would apply automatically across the country. Now, the government announced that they would do this nearly 12 months ago, and they said that they would have it done by the end of 2025, and yet we’re still waiting for that register.
Oliver Peterson: Why are we still waiting?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Oh, goodness knows, we asked questions about this in estimates, about a month or so ago, and got really, you know, typical sort of bureaucratic excuses. I think this government, they’re just not really focussing on the important things. They’re good at announcing things, but they’re not doing what’s necessary to get it done. And you hit the nail on the head, Oly. Parents trust in this system is has been rocked in recent years, and they need to have confidence. I mean, there’s nothing more devastating than learning that your child’s been in a childcare centre, where there’s been instances of paedophilia and child sexual abuse. I mean, it’s absolutely horrific for these families. So, the second thing that we’ve called for, this was announced by Angus Taylor yesterday, is that we think there should be a childcare perpetrator register. That is that, if charged perpetrators in the childcare sector are there, they should be published as a general rule, on a trusted website, on a government run website. At the moment, families are simply having to rely on media reports. Uh, you know, the publishing of, um, photos of, uh, of clothing items, so that parents can identify that. Now, that’s, that’s, of course, very distressing. Now, for most families, when they’re parents, going through that distressing situation, when they’ve got to take it upon themselves to find out if maybe their child was at one of the centres where, you know, one of these alleged perpetrators were at. Well, and they find out that no, they weren’t. So that’s obviously great relief, but the anxiety of having to go through that process is obviously traumatic for parents. And so, we think a national childcare perpetrator register that can be on a trusted website that would be developed in consultation with law enforcement to make sure that it didn’t, in any way, encroach on the only sub judicy issues. So that, you know, we’re talking about people that have been charged by the police, not just on an allegation, not just the vexatious accusation that it actually be, if someone is charged, they should be, they should be, should be placed on a register.
Oliver Peterson: How do you balance that, though, with the presumption of innocence, that people who are charged should be generally made public, at least?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Look, that is, that is a, uh, that is, of course, a very important point, and that’s why we’re saying it should be developed with law enforcement, uh, so that it’s done in such a way that it, um, Yeah, what we’re asking for is the person’s, and it should clearly state that this person, you know, has been charged, and they’re alleged, and the presumption of innocence must be maintained, but it should have the workers employment history, relevant employment history, that is, of course, what childcare centres they’ve worked in. So that parents can see that, and they can then come forward, let police know, and have confidence. But at the moment, it’s sort of seeing media reports, waiting for the phone call, and as I said, most times, it turns out that, you know, for that family, they weren’t involved. But you can appreciate the anxiety, Oly, of what it’s like for a family to have to go through that, period of unknown, and it’s very distressing. I think a very simple thing to do would be to have it listed. You can look it up, you can see, well, actually no, my child wasn’t, in that childcare centre at that time, or whatever, it might be.
Oliver Peterson: Would the register only cover childcare workers or could it extend to other sectors involving children?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: It’s a good question. Look, I’ll wear only proposing at this stage, that it would be for childcare workers. I mean, this is where we’ve got these cases, horrific cases. And as you’ve said, you know, parents need to have trust in the system. You know, you’ve got no other choice, right? You’re needing to work, cost a living means, you know, mum and dad have got to be in work, and you’ve got to send your child to a childcare centre. Well, you’ve got to have trust in it, and confidence in it. We want that, so we just think the government could do that. But the first thing they need to do immediately is, do what they’ve already committed to doing, and that is this ‘banned in one, banned in all’ register. It’s something they’ve already committed service. I don’t know why I haven’t done it.
Oliver Peterson: So, how would mutual recognition of negative working with children check decisions work? Do you think in practice, Senator?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Well, it just means, like, if… It’s less of an issue in Western Australia, where, obviously, we haven’t got that same sort of border crossing issue, like you do, say, between Victoria and New South Wales, or New South Wales and Queensland, where there is a lot more mobility of employment. It just means that if you’re banned in New South Wales, you can’t go up to Queensland and work there, I mean, it’s pretty straightforward.
Oliver Peterson: Well, we’ve seen evidence, haven’t we? And examples that people who have been refused or stripped of a working with children check in one state have been able to cross the border, as you say, Senator, and work in another state.
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: That’s right, that’s right. And of course, you know, people are portable, their mobile, if you’ve got a blockage somewhere. So there’s no reason why it shouldn’t. Now, it obviously requires the cooperation, and this is sort of part of the evidence that we heard in estimates, that it requires the states to step up. Because they’re the ones that actually manage their own register. West Australia managers its own, and each other state does the same. So they obviously all need to cooperate together. Maybe it’s like herding cats, I don’t know, but it shouldn’t be this way. There really is no higher priority than the safety of our children, and I just don’t understand why it’s taking so long.
Oliver Peterson: Shadow Minister for Choice in Childcare and Early Learning, and WA Liberal Senator, Matt O’Sullivan is with me live on Drive, 102.5 ABC Perth, this is Oliver Peterson with you at eight-to-five. Do you trust Australia’s childcare system, 1300 221 025. Senator, has the government indicated whether it is, still willing to consider either of these proposals?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Well, on the first one, they’ve said that they’re going to do it, and they said that they, you know, they will do it. This proposal to create the National Perpetrator Register is a new one for them. They’ll just be learning about it in the last 24-48 hours, so we haven’t had a response yet. But we think it’s a sensible thing that could be done, it’s very simple, and we’d trust law enforcement to work to design it as well, so that all safeguards that are, of course, necessary, and the presumption of innocence is taken care of. So we urge them to do it, we’re in communication with the government, and hopefully we’ll get a good response.
Oliver Peterson: And beyond these two measures, are there other reforms that you’re proposing or considering that are needed to restore parents’ confidence in the childcare system?
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Well, look, and… I want to give credit to the sector. They’re already doing an enormous amount. There’s training that’s now happening, all childcare workers are required to undergo online training and that that’s been done, and they’ve got a due date to have that completed by, but the last, data that I’ve got is that, you know, childcare workers and childcare centres have been embracing it really strongly. One of the criticisms I would say, though, about it, is that I’ve gone in and had a look at this online training, that you can do, and you can skip through the videos and the sections on it – to complete it, you know, it would normally take a couple hours to complete it, where you can do it. You can do it, you know, in less than half an hour, if you just sort of forward through the content. So, I, you know, they should be, you shouldn’t be able to do that. Obviously, you know, you’ve got to make sure that the bona fides of the system is there, and it’s got some rigour around it. I actually asked the minister about this and estimates, and I said to her that, you know, I’ve had a look at this training course, have you? And she said, no, she hadn’t. Yet she’s mandated every childcare worker in the country to do it. Yet herself, had not taken the time, and you know, I’m only a shadow minister, but I’ve taken time to actually take a look at it, and my staff and I took the time to look at it, and you know, it’s disappointing that… So I just wonder, you know, what’s the government, where’s their priority? Why are they not, sort of, focussed on these things, if you can’t even look at your own training modules and training course, that you’re mandating workers to have to undertake, why they themselves have not taken a look at them themselves – I don’t know.
Oliver Peterson: Senator, thank you for your time.
Senator Matt O’Sullivan: Thanks, Oly.